at eleven, was described by his teachers as ‘bright’
at the same age, according to the Sorting Hat: “Not a bad mind, either. There’s talent, oh my goodness, yes” and “You could be great, you know, it’s all here in your head”
mastered the challenging Patronus Charm at thirteen and proceeded to teach it at fifteen
resisted the Imperius Curse at fourteen and soon learned to throw it off completely, even when cast by the incredibly powerful Voldemort
also at fourteen, learned to cast a powerful Accio Charm
at fifteen, was training other students
at the same age, under extreme stress, tested as ‘exceeds expectations’ or ‘outstanding’ in every subject that required actual magic (including the dreaded Potions)
same age, cast a briefly effective Cruciatus Curse
at sixteen, became a star Potions student simply by following superior instructions
at seventeen, successfully cast the Imperius Curse on his first try, and used it repeatedly
at the same age, cast a successful Cruciatus Curse
I also blame the movies for giving Hermione all of the answers while stripping Harry of his resourcefulness, determination, and initiative, and Ron of his street smarts and strategic thinking.
And the poor kid even says this stuff about himself all the time. He thinks he’s not very smart and that he’s just lucky and his friends and teachers are mostly the reason that he’s stayed alive and like instead of recognizing that that is a horrible (and false) self image that has been drilled into him by his abusers, fans are just like ‘yep all true’
and i stand by that. how much more can our conversations be, and our fic and our fandom, if we embrace characters’ complexities? that doesn’t mean pretending that they’re good. it means acknowledging that people can be good and bad, both at the same time.
@dictacontrion This is me saying more, though I am a bit late to the party, but still… a few thoughts on this topic (mind I could
write an essay on this);
So, Dumbledore is one of my favourite
characters, if not even my favourite (I’m not a decision maker ok), because I
feel that he represents the person I’d like to be. But hear me out before
judging me. Dumbledore is a funny, witty, charismatic, powerful persona, he is
clever, to the point one can calmly call him genius, he is also empathetic,
kind, willing to help, and yet he had done things that are the opposite of
that.
No one is denying his immorality when it comes to
Harry; he left a baby in an abusing home knowingly,
he withheld the truth about his destiny from him until the last moment and he
in a way really did raise him like a pig for slaughter. That is undeniable.
However, one important thing that is often overlooked
is that Dumbledore himself knew all that.
One important thing that is overlooked, when he is portrayed as a manipulative
heartless bastard is that, Dumbledore was a very introspective person and he
thought about the consequences of his actions all the time. He hated himself
for doing this to Harry, but he would have hated himself even more had he left
the wizarding world at the mercy of Voldemort, which is what, in his opinion,
would have happened had he not ‘used’ Harry. That is what he believed. It doesn’t
mean it was right, or just, or moral, but the thing is it worked. It simply worked.
At a great cost, but it worked.
So here rises a question the humanity should discuss
every single day. Does the end ever
justify the means? I will not go on about this, because I trust you can
find examples of this happening in everyday life quite easily.
But I would like to say just one more thing about
Dumbledore. He was very intelligent. He knew he was more intelligent than most people, which to him meant he carried greater responsibility to the
world. He felt obligation because the universe had gifted him a more powerful
brain. He knew this was not his doing, he knew he did nothing that merited him
being more intelligent (yes he did further educate himself, which is v.
important, but let’s not deny the existence of geniuses that are simply out of
this world). A
nd here we are presented with another big question: Does being more intelligent than others
bring more responsibility? Should having a certain talent/skill/opportunity/access
to education/even money automatically oblige you to ‘help the world’? And why?
Why do I look up to Dumbledore, you ask?. Because I
want to be as introspective as he
was. Because I want to be aware of the
fact that my actions do have consequences (however small), because I want
to doubt if what I’m doing is right
every step of the way and still do it if I really consider this the right path.
And last of all, because I want to be able
to see and admit when I am wrong and reassess
the very foundations of my beliefs no matter how hard it is, no matter how
much remorse I feel, no matter how much I as a person feel unsettled in search
for the truth.
(So this turned out to be more about Dumbledore than
about the uselessness of character bashing, but still. It lay heavy on my heart
and now I’m free.)
this is magnificent. and i think it *is* about the uselessness of character bashing.
when we hold to the idea that characters have to be either good or evil we lose the chance to examine everything in between. character bashing kills the nuance that lets us examine human complexity, including our own. If there are two options for a debate and they are: (1) dumbledore or snape: good/best ever or evil/worst ever? or (2) at what point in the pursuit of good ends do your means become unacceptable, and who gets to decide and on what grounds? – then, like, which of those conversations is more important to have? which is richer and more needed? I would choose option 2 every time. Lists of evidence to say that someone is good or evil doesn’t get us much of anywhere. This though – this does.
This is so awesome and I completely agree—characters are not interesting characters because they are perfectly good or perfectly bad, they’re interesting because they’re flawed. That said, I think one thing missing from this discussion is this:
-Fandom hate for Snape comes from this mainstream view that is very apologetic for Snape, people who are touched and heartbroken when Snape’s motivations become clear at the end of the series, who think that Snape’s actions are romantic. People who go get deathly hallows tattoos with “Always” written under them. Fandom hate for Snape (I almost just typed Trump, LOL, apparently “hate for” defaults to that these days) is only understandable within that context. It’s trying very specifically to act as a correction. And in doing so, people have become really reactionary about him. First an overreaction in one direction, then in the other.
-Fandom hate (or distaste) for Dumbledore seems exactly the same. During the course of the books, Dumbledore is presented as flawed, sure, and Harry is really angry at him for much of it, but he’s also presented as the wisest and most trustworthy person in the series. When he dies, it’s heartbreaking, and Harry (and the reader) is heartbroken. The sense I get is that the fandom wants to make sure people don’t forget that Dumbledore does a lot of shit things–and people do forget that!
The problem, of course, is that throughout all of this, everyone insists on seeing them as all good -or- all bad. Which takes all interesting discussion or consideration off the table, as you both said.
Interestingly, fandom debates about Draco seem qualitatively different than those about Snape/Dumbledore, because Draco is presented explicitly by JKR as a shades of gray character. He is a total ass as a child, and then is completely broken in books 6 and 7, and he doesn’t kill Dumbledore, and he doesn’t reveal Harry’s identity. BUT–and I think this is key in comparing his treatment to the treatment of Snape–there is no “RAH RAH DRACO!” big reveal scene where suddenly Draco seems absolved. There is no satisfying conclusion for him at all. So the reader is almost forced to accept Draco as a shades of gray character, where his arc is up in the air, whereas the final treatment of Snape seems very absolving, and JKR’s treatment of Dumbledore seems absolving from start to finish.
This is fascinating and right on. I’ve never considered the endings like that, but it makes total sense to me. Also interesting to consider in light of some of the more popular criticisms of the epilogue – that it’s too tidy for a generation that’s grown up in a messy world, that it’s simple to the point of being unbelievable. Does that tie in at all to which characters/narratives we want to make more or less complicated?
Completely agree that a lot of that character bashing is reactive. I wonder if that just gets us into an echo chamber, with one side shouting “here are all the bad things you’re forgetting!” and the other shouting “here are all the good things you’re forgetting!” If our conversations were more nuanced, would we feel the same need to do that? When people forget the complexity of a character and paint them as good or bad, is it more productive to argue for the other side, or to argue for nuance that lets these aspects of a character coexist?
okay but was james potter the type to bite back all his deer related puns because ~don’t be suspicious~ or was he that weird kid at hogwarts with a deer obsession i need to know
…he called moony’s werewolf obsession ‘furry little problem’ and his nickname was prongs. pretty sure he had a deer obsession, babe, but masked it with general animal pun obnoxiousness.
actual footage of james and sirius on the hogwarts grounds
concept: willy wonka and harry potter take place in the same universe the ministry of magic haaaates Willy Wonka
“Mr. Wonka,” Dumbledore smiled warmly, looking down into the Pit from his podium. The members of the Wizengamot muttered disapprovingly, shifting in their seats. Willy Wonka, clad today in a bright magenta suit and tophat, beamed cheekily up at them from his chair, his silver-gloved hands cradling his chin.
“Mr. Dumbledore,” He replied brightly, with the barest hint of a lisp.
“I trust you know why you are here?” Dumbledores question was crisp and businesslike, but the twinkle in his eye gave away his amusement at the situation.
“Not at all! I’ve nary a clue,” Wonka wiggled his eyebrows. Dumbledore audibly stifled a laugh.
“You are accused of improper use of magic, improper use of muggle artifacts, and several counts of using magic in front of a muggle,” Dumbledore reminded him. He conjured a projection with his wand. Displayed in grainy sepia was Willy Wonka, arm around a boy of around 10. Behind his back, he twitched an ash wand, and machines in the background around them whirred to life, producing all manner of sweets.
The projection ran its course and collapsed, and Dumbledore stowed his wand back inside his robes.
Wonka smiled and fiddled with his hat.
“How do you plead?” Dumbledore asked, leaning forward eagerly for what would surely be an amusing trial.
“Not guilty on all counts,” Wonka said, perhaps a tad smugly.
The members of the Wizengamot muttered amongst themselves. Not Guilty? Impossible!
Dumbledore hushed them quickly. “Explain, if you would. We have, after all, quite a mountain of evidence.”
Wonka stood and brushed a bit of dust off his suit. He tipped his hat mischievously. “Of course,” he grinned.
“Firstly, use of magic shall only be considered improper whereby it is applied to cause harm or applied recklessly. All magic used in my sweets is rigorously tested for both safety and taste. It is not used to cause harm, but to bring joy.” Wonka paused to adjust his jacket.
“But surely,” Dumbledore said, leafing through his notes, “you cannot deny that you illegally charmed several thousand muggle artifacts?”
“Ah, but I can,” Wonka said, now twirling his cap in his hands. “Muggle artifact refers, of course, to any muggle made object. But, you see, I built those machines, each and every one. They are not muggle machines at all, but wizarding machines, built by a wizard. The factory itself, as well. You could argue that, as machines are a muggle invention, I still broke the rules, but then I could argue that every wizard dwelling with any charms applied to its walls is in violation of the law, as muggles were the first to make bricks.”
The Wizengamot glared silently. He was right, of course. Violating the spirit of the law was not illegal if one followed the letter.
“And the last charge? These are definitely Muggle children, are they not? No magical talent, raised in muggle society?” Dumbledore straightened his glasses and peered down at Wonka, his eyes still bright with intrigue.
“Not at all,” Wonka grinned, placing his hat back on his head. “You see, the ticket system was not nearly so random as I pretended. The tickets were charmed, they would only becomes visible to children with magical heritage. All the children chosen were second generation Squibs.” Wonka bowed low, as if he were finishing a particularly well executed play.
“Well, ladies and gentlemen, it seems no laws were violated after all.” Dumbledore stifled a grin at the groans of angry disapproval from the Wizengamot.
“But he very clearly violated the intent of the rules!” Spluttered a large, rather red faced wizard in the second row. “He’s just…cheating! He’s cheating!”
“Ah, this is true, but he did not, technically speaking, break any of the rules. He did not expose muggles to magic, nor enchant muggle made objects, nor improperly apply magic anymore so than any magical confectioner. I’m afraid we have to let him go.” Dumbledore smiled gently and put away the rather thick file with Wonka’s name embossed on the cover. For the brief second it was open, a list of hundreds of charges with “Not Guilty” inked beside them was visible. It was carried off by a house elf, and the Wizengamot began to file out until only Dumbledore was left.
“You’re a very clever man,” He called down to Wonka. “We could use you at Hogwarts, you know.”
“No thank you,” Wonka called back, grinning. “Skirting the law is far more fun!”
Willy Wonka is a fucking Slytherin.
I’d prevviously said ‘Yes! Gene Wilder! Wonk!’. Now there’s pics.
BUT…
OMG.
MS. FRIZZLE! (and the MAGIC School Bus).
She must be before the Wizengamot ALL the TIME.
(Is her excuse; ‘Well, it’s educational’???? And it WORKS?!!)
Cornelius Fudge sighed and rubbed a hand over his face. Behind him, the members of the Wizengamot muttered amongst themselves, wondering what his next move would be. When he finally looked up from his podium, all he could do was glare at the chipper redheaded woman perched on the arm of the interrogation seat in the Pit. A bright green lizard poked its head out of the collar of her planet patterned dress and skittered around her shoulders to stare back at him.
“Mrs. Valerie…” He checked the file again. “Frizzle?”
“Good morning, Minister!” She replied happily, a hint of a laugh in her voice.
“It’s 3:30 in the afternoon, Madam,” He replied. He was tired.
“Here yes, but in America, its 10:30 in the morning! Aren’t time zones incredible?” She smiled and he could see all her teeth.
Fudge’s eye twitched irritably and he took a deep, steadying breath.
“Do you know why you’ve been called before the Wizengamot today, Mrs. Frizzle?” He asked, shuffling the papers from her file.
“I’m probably in trouble,” she smiled serenely, absentmindedly petting the lizard. “That is, after all, what the Wizengamot deals in!”
Fudge stifled a groan as he began leafing through her file. He didn’t even know where to begin. “Mrs. Frizzle, you are charged with no less than two hundred and thirty two counts of violating the Statute of Secrecy. Note that this is one count for each muggle known to be exposed to magic through your actions, and not a reflection of how many actions you have taken.” He drew out a page from the file. “Actions that include unlawful use of a sentience charm upon a muggle bus, unlawful use on that same bus of indestructibility charms and some sort of curse or hex that made the damn thing not only unresponsive and utterly unusable to anyone but yourself and your students, but also made us unable to decharm, move or even hide it, several unlawful uses of shrinking charms, bubble head charms, transfiguration, and at least one unregistered charm of your own making that allowed you to leave the planet entirely!” He slammed his hand down on the podium. “Do you have anything at all to say for yourself?!”
Mrs. Frizzle smiled politely. “Prime Minister,” she said calmly, “With all due respect, I have a question for you. Have you ever captured lightning in a bottle?”
“Have I- What?” Fudge spluttered, taken aback by her odd question.
“Have you ever captured lightening in a bottle?” She repeated, eyes flashing.
“Of course I haven’t, what sort of nonsense-” He began, but she threw up her hand and interrupted him.
“Muggles have. They’ve known how to use the same energy that comprises lightening to light their homes for over 100 years now. They can generate what amounts to lightening in a bottle with water, or the light and heat from the sun, or the wind. They can carry music in their pockets. They have been able, for nearly 30 years now, to leave the Earth and stand on the Moon.” Mrs. Frizzle straightened her dress. “I have, yes, been using my magic to help teach my students, but what I’ve been teaching them is science! It’s a shame that we don’t learn science as children the way muggles do. They know how the planets move! They know why the Earth turns! Muggles have a wealth of knowledge that rivals that of the centaurs, and we just,” She gestures around incredulously. “We just ignore it! Did you know they are able to not only capture movement, but also sound on film? It’s incredible!”
Fudge waved a hand to silence the incensed grumbling of the Wizengamot. “Mrs. Frizzle,” he hissed angrily. “It does not matter how many trinkets and non-magical work-arounds the muggles have made, regardless of how incredible you find them. Their ‘science’ is not on trial here, you are, for exposing muggles to magic!”
“Minister, you do know my students are all muggle borns,” Mrs. Frizzle said, perhaps a touch angrily, her usual enthusiasm for science replaced by an anger at tech marvels being referred to as ‘trinkets’.
“They’re not the only ones who have seen your…Magic Bus!” Fudge roared, slamming his fist on the podium and eliciting a dull rumble of approval from the Wizengamot. “Mrs. Frizzle, since you have failed to mount a defense, we will now take a vote. All in favor of conviction?”
A sea of hands shot into the air.
“All opposed?”
2 or 3 hands were placed waveringly in the air, then quickly fell.
“Mrs. Frizzle, you are found guilty of 232 counts of breaking the Statute of Secrecy. The wand you surrendered upon entering the Ministry will be kept, and you are fined in the amount of 1,160 galleons. If you cannot pay this fine, you will be given a job on low level staff or doing community service until such time as the debt is paid. Good day.” Fudge closed her file and handed it the the Junior Undersecretary, who ferried it back to the Hall of Records.
Mrs. Frizzle stomped out, angry but not ready to give up. Luckily for her, they hadn’t taken her backup wand. She had classes tomorrow, after all, and they couldn’t very well explore the world of pollen without a proper shrinking charm. She made a mental note to stop by her cousin Xenophillius’ house to pick up her backup to her backup. She loved his house. Shaped like a chess peice, can you imagine?
This is why the Wizarding World of Harry Potter is just so…..dumb.
I think you’re all forgetting the obvious… Mary Poppins.
“Back again, Mary?” Dumbledore twinkled at the woman in the
felt hat standing ramrod straight in front of the chair in the pit. She’d
always been one of his favourite students.
sparksoffandommagic 